Jan 11
What Should the Next-Generation Open-Wheel Race Car Look Like?
What does the perfect open-wheel racing car of the future look like in the minds of the fans? HVM Racing would like to find out. The team opened this online forum to tap into the creativity and passion of race fans, inviting suggestions and ideas for a new chassis design. Fans are encouraged to submit their concepts through the “Comment” function below. All sketches, designs, opinions and criticisms are welcome.
One submission, selected by a random drawing from all submissions, will win the opportunity for two people to be VIP guests of HVM Racing at the 2010 Indianapolis 500.
Comments will be taken until March 15, 2010.
133 comments133 Comments so far
Try this.
For gosh sakes, make sure it has 4 wheels; preferrable 2 in the front and 2 in the back with 2 of them on each side.
Fabulous idea. Props for the effort. I want the new car to be 1) much cheaper to build/maintain and 2) funky looking. I leave the details to others.
The current Dallara chassis has been fabulous for the IndyCar Series. It has provided some excellent racing especially on the ovals, although the road courses have been lacking but that can also be attributed to the engines. When looking into a new chassis, there are some major topics that have been discussed such as, the cost, being able to run well on both ovals and circuits, and wethere or not it should be an evolution of the current Dallaras or a new, more radical design.
Well here’s what I think:
First of all the car needs to be very cost effective; that’s what the IRL has been about for so many years. The IRL has been able to provide very fast and technolgicly advanced cars on a budget that also allow for some excellent racing. This needs to carry over into the next generation of IndyCars.
The debate over more ovals or road courses can go either way, but what is a given is that the new car must be able to run well on both, regardless of the schedual. I think the new car should have less aerodynamic downforce, allowing for more mechanical grip, much like what Formula has done. The current cars can go flat out in qulaifying at places like the Milwaukee Mile; make the car more difficult to drive; force the drivers to back off a little in the corners. Either way, to me, the most important thing is that the car can race well on both types of tracks.
Throughout the history of the Indianapolis 500 and American open wheel racing’s history, we have been known for putting some very innovative and radical cars on the track. If you look at the evolution of the car from the late 1970’s until now, for the most part, the car hasn’t changed much. The basic design of, sidepods, front and rear wings, and the rear engine placement, have stayed the same for over 30 years. Needless to say, it’s time for a change. The new car needs to be different, radical, revolutionary. Make it look fast. I look back at the CART cars in the 90’s and they just all look so sleek and fast. They were low and wide. I’m not saying that the new cars need to look exactley like that, but they need to have those characteristics. When you look at all the different open wheel cars throughout the world, they are kind of blend together after a while. I’m sorry to say that the Dallaras have become to conform to the crowd. One reason that Formula is so succesful is that their cars are so different from the averge open wheel car. I don’t want IndyCars to look like F1 cars, but they do need to stand out, look technologicly advanced, look different from everything else.
Overall, the IndyCar Series needs a car thats economicly sensible, can race well on both ovals and road courses, and a car that looks different and revolutionary.
Make it look like a mid 90s CART car. same rules. At least 2 chassis manufacturers, 2 or 3 engine manufactures. No one gives a rats ass about spec. car racing. IRL is just a expensive version of formula ford. When the teams bought new cars each year the playing field was more level, everyone started the year with a new car to develop and learn about. When you run the same car year after year you end up with 2 or 3 teams that develop the car to a level that the small teams can never reach. You then have those teams winning all the races. BOREING
Was anyone paying attesion at the Elkhart Lake Irl / Alms race? The croud left after the Alms race on Saturday! Alms has a mess of chassis and engine manufactures, More interesting….
1971 was the last time an Indy 500-winning car looked measurably different than it does today–for all intents and purposes, the cars have looked the same for nearly forty years. Sure, they carry new technology, are sleeker and faster, but they’re still rear-engine vehicles with a monocoque chassis, four open wheels, a large rear wing, and smaller front wing. Even at that, Al Unser’s winning P.J. Colt from ‘71 fits that same mold, save for the lack of wings.
Almighty rulers of IndyCar, if you’re listening, the future is now.
To borrow terms, be it evolutionary or revolutionary, we will live with whatever car design is introduced for 2012 for YEARS, and the decision on what car to bring forward is the most important crossroads the sport has faced since the split. It’s imperative we choose the right path and, in my mind, “radical” wins out over traditional, hands down.
I’m a traditionalist at heart and, having begun attending races in 1974, I’m as fully indoctrinated with the current car as they come; but even I recognize that fresh thinking moves IndyCar beyond its current boundaries, making it relevant again, whereas a slightly revamped version of the same old, same old just leaves it hopelessly stuck in neutral.
A comprehensive argument for and against the varying designs could span volumes, so let’s keep it short. It’s a simple as this: to anyone outside the current fan base, a wickedly cool car means “wow,” the status quo means “whatever.” The sport desperately needs new interest and a great-looking, technologically-relevant car is the easiest way to get it.
Do I want a solar-powered tricycle? An electric dragster? Not particularly and, frankly, I fear what a “futuristic design” might bring, but it’s time to roll the dice. Could IndyCar be any more insignificant than it currently is? I suppose the possibilities are endless, but if the series can roll out anything that looks like this one designed by Yutian Li, I say bring it on. http://www.diseno-art.com/encyclopedia/concept_cars/honda_indy_racing_car.html
http://www.andhesonit.blogspot.com
The future of racing should look like this:
I have to agree with Dan on the first post. This is a beautiful car
Take the DP-01, remodel the rear wing end plates, (they were HUGE) and you’re good to go. Economical, looks like a formula car should, races well. Take the current Honda lump, throw it off the nearest pier and resurrect the turbos from the Champ Car days. Hmmm, anyone else seeing a pattern here? How did we get to this point again?
The current car and engine combination is an abomination. This series needs more than just a new car, though, if it has any chance of survival.
1. Allow multiple chassis. Set safety regulations as well as regulations on the aero (to promote passing) and then go for it. Some would be good on ovals, others road courses, and maybe some would be average at both. It would be really good to have that variety.
2. Free up engine restrictions. To get the manufactures, you need to allow them to have freedom. Allow many different power sources (Ethanol, diesel, electric, petrol, methanol, butanol, etc) and engine sizes. Set up regulations for each engine size (I4, I6, V6, V8, V10, V12) to try to keep some balance.
3. Mandate more power on road courses.
4. A legitimate Power-2-Pass like in Champ Car. 50 hp on road courses, less on ovals.
5. Make it pretty. People like pretty things.
6. Build it in the US. I say this only because it will keep costs down for the teams.
I appreciate what the Dallara has done but it’s time for a new era.
I think this would be a cool, innovative, futuristic car for the IndyCar Series. Great for sidepod sponsers.
OK, See this beautifal Panoz DP01. Make some changes to allow a few oval races, but mostly road racing. Right now AOWR is nothing more than a formula 3 car with more horsepower. Now Honda says their next-generation IRL engine will produce less than 600 hp. Also, somehow we need to get more engine suppliers. Honda is crap. Toyota is crap. We need Cosworth v8’s with more than 800hp. Then invite in Mazda, Ford, good solid racing engines with companies that may actually care about AOWR.
All I can say now about the current IRL is it is in big trouble. Is it true the IRL is not even backing the new delta wing project. Lets see, you have IZOD, but attendance ad viewership is down. NASCAR is on a downfall, yet these idiots running the IRL cant seem to get it through their thick heads their series sucks. The future car should be what the MAJORITY of racefans want, TURBOCHARGED THUNDER. Like CART was, quality cars, quality racing and quality drivers. Not the crap we have now.
Come on owners, you, Penske, Ganassi, NHL. Create your own series, and let old farts like AJ Foyt race in the IZOD Formula 4 series. OH yeah. Bring Simona, SHE WILL DESTROY DANICA
I really like the DP01 and I like the proto type that Bill Brash
posted (seen this one on AR1 for some time) just low and wide with out a large air boxs.Somebody should just mold these two car together.That year the DP01 was introduced at SJGP was sweet, I thought we where going places now,owell.
I think the next generation car should look like the Panoz DP01. In my opinion it is the best looking open wheeled car ever.
A turbo, no air box, 900 horsepower, and low and sleek. Just like the glory days pre-1996. Put the emphasis back on skill and car control, instead of over-aero’ed foot-to-the-floor momentum racing.
Of course, that will never happen. The “brain” trust at Indy would never let the best driver win, it might embarrass their Princess.
A close second choice wound be this beast… isn’t Farber College Anton’s alma mater?
The future of the “Vision”
Realizing the safety factors built into these cars prohibits me from making cosmedic suggestions. As much as I loved the roadsters of the 50’s and 60’s I have gotten used to the rear engine creations to the point they now look like race cars to me. My suggestion is more body / chassis designs along with several engine suppliers, give me an American made chassis and body powered by a normally aspirated V eight FORD and I will have something to cheer for, that has been missing for quite a long time in my life. I’m 65 years old and a life long open wheel fan that happens to bleed FORD BLUE when I get cut, I wish someone would hurry up and build a winning Ford for The Speedway before I die. As a matter of fact that goes for the sprints, traditional dirt cars and midgets also. Although Mr. East has done a nice job with the midgets we need some fast Fords in the sprints. At any rate the picture posted by Peter Gozina @ 6:05 1/11/10 is a very nice looking car it just needs a large Blue Oval on the nose cone
Seriously? Give the DP01 a chance.
With a new oval package you’d win over the IRL faithful.
In road race trim you’d please the old Champ Car fans.
In both modes, you’d save a ton of development cost.
I doubt you’ll be able to bring me back to watch anything less.
http://www.hvmracing.com/hvmblog/wp-content/upload/sj16.bmp
A real IndyCar, this is what we enjoyed watching on the super speedways before Tony George started to to think.
As I see it, there are only 2 requirements for the next generation of open wheel car:
1) it should look good, and make both young kids who’ve never seen a racing car and long-time racing fans “go ‘wow’”.
2) it will not have an IRL IndyCar logo on it.
I have to agree with those above. The DP01 was just a superb car and would be an excellent and low-cost improvement on the embarrassingly awful Dallara. Be nice to have it with the Cozzie, too.
Start with this and add 750-900 HP. Should do the trick!!!
What dies the proposed “delta wing” look like? I need to see the delta wing before making a decision.
I personally am all for a light weight, ground effects car like the one Ben Bowlby is pitching. I remember those great ground effect cars in CART and F1 in the early 80’s, those machines put on great races and challenged the drivers on ovals and road courses. F1 cars with ground effects and no front wing actually provided lots of opertunities for passing on road courses and CART machines had great races on the older flatter ovals (Indy, Mil, Pho, Mich, Naz, etc.). With modern CFD technology, and wind tunnel testing a modern wingless design could put on great racing, and these technologies could get rid of porpoising and some of the rough ride characteristics of gf cars. So I say go for it, it’s nothing to be afaid of, it make look a little different but if in can improve the racing it could elevate Indycar racing back to were it belongs. But continuing on with a revision of the current Dallara and putting on the same racing that hasn’t caught on or captivated the racing public is bound to net zero results, you have to give people a reason to watch and the current product isn’t doing that.
I took the pic myself, and it can’t get better than this, the perfect racing car.
Gents, seriously, your American-made racer already exists. It already uses the current Indycar engine, comes in at the same weight as the Dallara, uses state of the art aero, looks pretty sharp and has been race tested.
Call these guys: http://www.swiftengineering.com/motorsports.shtml
Buy a couple of chassis, hire PT and go kick Penske butt!
Pre 2007 F1 cars looked cool & fast. But you will have to have regulations which keep the cost low. F1 budgets are rediculous. Try and have the best of 2 worlds.
Since it seem like the consensus is to go back in history with the DP01 why not refine one of these real race car designs to meet today’s safety standards and make the drivers drive by the seat of their pants again.
Try this:
or this:
No futuristic Bat-mobile please…
I want to see a car without barn doors for front wings, something that requires more driver control on the ovals (perhaps needing to use the thing called a brake) and to have have ample power on street courses to pass. Kinda like most of the major open wheel cars, less the current IndyCar’s. Minimum 700hp for ovals and 800 for street courses. Bring back the turbo’s for parity and adjusting of power levels, as well as the sweet sound that people can relate to as FAST!
Don’t destroy the history of Open Wheel in the US by going with some Frankenstein Delta Wing concept that will alienate long time fans! Evolution, not revolution please. A proper refinement of an Open Wheel car that LOOKS like an Indy Car and reduces cost and increase road course performance is needed. Or just drag out the low mileage DP01’s collecting dust. There’s your cost effective, good looking, turbocharged chassis that we could get a few more years of racing out of. Lower the boost (HP) as needed for ovals, and increase the power for road courses to 850 – 900 HP. That will make Indy Car exciting again.
NO STUPID DELTA WING!!!
I think the new car should look like something similar to the one`s they used in Champ Car. They allway`s produced some exciting races.
How about doing some testing with the DP01’s? Show the league what an incredibly cost effective solution this would be. As desired, a turbocharged car that would cost a fraction of building a new car in this economic climate. Change the engine formula to a turbocharged V6 with 800 HP for ovals (make the drivers lift and DRIVE the cars!), and 900 HP for road courses. Get 3 engine manufacturers involved.
I would be fine with DP01’s for a few years, I’m sure all former Champ Car fans would be too. No Delta Wing crap please.
Start by defining the problems you are trying to solve. Simplicity of construction? Increased safety? (always yes, I know). Decreased cost? Better performance? Better competition between teams?
I would like to see the rear wing moved forward of the rear wheels, and an increase in the area of the sidepods. Think of it as an attempt to embed the front wheels within the pods and front wing, and use the airflow over that relatively continuous surface to direct air flow to the “rear” (really, amidship) wing.
Moving the rear wing in front of the larger rear tires might reduce the non-laminar flow turbulence/issues from the tires being in front of/under the rear wing in it’s current position.
It’s possible a wing in this position could be used to supplant the roll bar for roll-over issues, as well as protect the driver, partially, from debris coming towards her or his helmet. (probably, mostly if the car had spun 180 degrees)
The increased sidepod area would be good for advertising. It might actually pay to redesign the front wings with a simple, non-compound geometric shape, for front wing “advertisability”. Even if too many aerodynamic issues would come up from changing the wing to a simple “wedge”, “scoop” (convex slope) or “reverse scoop” (concave slope), taking a long hard look at making the center 2/3’s of the wing as a solid, straight, and somewhat upright surface for advertisers would probably be good for the sport as long as it didn’t come at the expense of safety.
After doing some research on the delta-wing concept and looking for pictures/drawings of Ben Bowlby’s design (in vain so far) I’m certainly behind the idea of a revolutionary new design. And I hate to admit it, but part of >ANY< redesign should include the thought of what the sponsors needs. Hate to say that too, but it's part of the sport — paying the bills. (Otherwise we'd be Forumla One, with no regard for costs, right?)
I think designing an open wheel-racer with big side-pods, a simple front wing that lends itself to advertising/safety, and with or without a rear-wing. As I wrote above, I'd like to see the rear wing in front of the rear wheels, also providing additional downforce for the front of the car.
If this placement reduces the stability of the car (it's like making a throwing dart shorter, this may decrease the tendency of the car to straighten itself out via the longitudinal leverage of the rear wing in it's current position), consider placing a rear-rudder-fin behind each rear wheel or down the centerline of the car — again, a good spot for advertisers.
see the problem with the league today is the car is old, outdated and slow. But to got with the DP01 is lame. Yes it’s a better looking car than the current dallara, but to the average person, they look the same, we need a new radical design, i’m not saying let’s have something completely crazy but something so cool you saw WOW. When i was younger when penske was making their own chassis, i could not wait to see what they would come up with on their new car. They had a new chassis almost every year, we need that again.
A nice racecar, is a car without wings. So the futuristic indycar, at the beginning of this page is really cool!
The lotus 80, without a front wing and a really low back wing is also a beautifull example of how a race car most look!
A small V12 2.2L will also be benefit for the indycars.
The new indycar most be a ‘real’ racecar!
Eric. The DP01 looks like the Dallara? Might I suggest an appointment at Lenscrafters?
Please bring back the DP-01 it seems as though most fans feel this way! I also think a V-6 turbocharged engine is a must and it should have 800-900 horsepower. Please DO NOT GO WITH THE DELTA WING CAR!!! I HAVE BEEN A LONG TIME INDYCAR/CHAMPCAR FAN AND I FEEL LIKE YOU WOULD ALIENATE A LOT OF FANS WITH THE DELTA WING CAR!! I’m all for cost savings and above all safety but INDYCARS should look like INDYCARS! We cannot afford to lose anymore fans!!
DP-01…..Nuff said!
And Turbo Charge the beyatch….lots of 2.65 liter Cosworth engines around…just ask Kalkoven or Forsythe to unlock the storage bin. And there you have your futuristic, safe, fast, cost effective and DSROP DEAD GORGEOUS race car of almost everyones dreams.
i said to the average person the DP01 looks like the Dallara. non-fans think indycar is F1 or vise-versa, before we dump on the delta-wing project, we should see what it looks like first. one thing i do want is speed records broken again. that is what its going to make indy exciting to the fans. i think the drivers will agree. they want to go fast and they know the dangers, if they had a change to break the 4 lap qualifying record at indy, they would all jump at the chance. give us fast cars again!!!!!
take off the fenders and this would be cool!!!!
nice!!! i’ve heard the Delta Wing kinda looks like the stealth fighter. this kinda has the same shape, with the sharp corners.
It should look exactly like the DP-01. Exactly, CC logo and all! =)
If I get a chance I can sketch something up, but, for the existing chassis to desing off of I like the Swift-built car for Formual Nippon. It looks like an arrow with wheels on it, and Swift was at the recent racing-tech Expo in Indy (plus it’d be nice to have a low-cost, American-built car).
God anything has to be better than the eyesore they use now. But it’s the Earl so who really cares, wake me up when we have a real series to watch again.
The former Champ Car teams tried the Dallara, turn about is fair play! Let the IRL teams try the DP01 on for size!
There are enough used DP01s out there to at least run the road & street races. It’s got to have a turbo V6 or V8
Here is another version of the Delta Wing car, with some color added. Sorry it’s rough….
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/imageBank/7/72614racecarjpg_00000050777.jpg
Since it hasn’t made an appearance in this thread, this is the Bowlby car (according to the site racecar-engineering.com). It looks radical, very different from any other open wheel racer. Heavy on the ground effects, forward swept wings and sponsor friendly. Something along these lines would give Indycar a distinctive look and be a marked improvement over the ugly pile of screws that is the current Dallara.
More Safer, more faster.
If that “thing” in the link above is the car they’re talking about using in the future it’ll kill off North American open wheel racing for good. Tough to take it seriously when it looks like something from a Saturday morning cartoon.
Hasn’t the IRL learned a thing over the past ten years of ineptitude? For once I wish they’d LISTEN TO THEIR FANS! Read what’s above; the majority of fans (those few that are left) don’t want some futuristic, ridiculous looking car. All the fans want is a proper, attractive, traditional open-wheeled car that doesn’t leave the ground at the slightest provocation. There shouldn’t be any need for this exercise when there’s a ready-made solution in the DP-01.
And I’m reading (from Miller) that this thing’s only going to run 325HP? I’ve also read 550 or so but either way that’s a pathetic engine for what bills itself as a top level racing series.
I’m one of those “lost” CART/CC fans that the IRL needs to get back, and watering down their already terrible formula isn’t likely to do it.
DP-01 would make the most sense obviously. Low miles on them and absolutely no R&D cost to the league in the form of having to design, test, and build an entirely new formula car. Not to mention all of the DP-01s just sitting around and the spares to go with them.
Delta Wing Project
enough with the DP01!!! do all of you own stock in the company?
There are no Indycar/CART fans left. Go ask the empty aluminum stands what they want to see buzzing past them. You really think the wankers at IMS give a damn about what the fans want to see? Do your really think the guys behind the Bowlby project care?
[Quote]Do your really think the guys behind the Bowlby project care?[/Quote]
Of course they do. Otherwise why would they be doing it and spending their own money and time. Really a stupid comment. Why is it that the “I will hate anything IRL” fans, can’t get over a split that ended two years ago and actually add some positives to a discussion about the future of Indy Car Racing.
Obviously you only care about slaming the IRL and its fans, because “Your side lost”, but the Bowlby prople, the Delta Wing group, IMS, the IRL and its fans care quite a lot about the future.
I hope the league goes with the new concept. If Robin Miller is correct, it will be significantly cheaper. There will be room for multiple manufacturers, and it could drive up casual interest in the IRL.
The last thing this series needs is another gimmick. After promoting too many undeserving drivers that never performed, the best thing would be to create an atmosphere where technology excites the fanbase on a continuing basis. Creating another spec chassis will not solve the problem. The DP-01 was great the first year because it was new and modern and created better racing. It wouldn’t have been so great three years later with no changes. The formula needs to create excitement, gimmicks seldom do.
JS January is right, no fans left but a very few die hards, and I do mean very few. Look at the crowd in Toronto last year. The 10 of us who always went to the CART race made damn sure we had other plans.
The IRL management does not care what the fans think, never have never will. It was all about Tony having control.
Why does everyone keep bringing up the DP01???? Because it the only logical choice. Some clown car with 325 HP. Ya right, brings to mind the tons of greasy little 19 year olds driving cheesy Civics with fart can mufflers and giant wings(and about the same HP). This side show car will not save AOWR.
The only thing the guys behind the Delta Wing group care about is $$$$ Chip and Roger will bankroll it make a nice little profit on the parts and have all the insider info on the car that they need to make sure they run 1 2 3 4 for the next 10 years. If anyone thinks other wise well I guess you just haven’t been watching close enough.
Give me something like this with a single seat and no fenders! nice!!!
I’ll put in a vote for bringing back the Panoz DP-01!!
Please, please, please…consider this fantastic car as a replacement for the Dallara.
If the DP-01 returns to racing, I will have a reason to attend IndyCar races again. I used to go to several Cart/ChampCar races each year, but I will not travel to an event involving the current car.
Here’s a picture I took of Justin Wilson’s DP-01 in 2007
24 900HP turbocharged DP-01s are the sweetest things I can think of right now to go up the front straight at Road America at full throttle. And what better for the Kink? That would be really sweet again…
No, no ownership in any DP-01s or the builder, but you don’t need to look very far to find a great chassis for Champ Car style racing. They run great on any track type I can think of – short of high-banked ovals which are just inappropriate for the speeds that this kind of car is capable of.
If you really want my opinion please consider it somewhat well informed as I have 28 years of industrial and automotive design experience as a professional engineer. I have extensive qualifications in the fields of CFD, Auto-Cad, wind tunnel operation, composite structure design and fabrication for private, commercial and military customers. If one insists on considering the socalled X-wing design…Surely you jest? This “car” looks like it was designed by a grade school, science fiction comic book reader. Please refrain from attempting to insult the good sense of someone that actually sees this lump as “NOT a viable option” for the future ‘Indy Car??’….you must be joking…it is April 1st somewhere in the world or has my calender warped ahead several months while I was playing with 1/4 scale advanced composite models in the Canadian National Research Council wind tunnel. Come on … some, seemingly ignorant, folks deride the DP01 as an acceptable choice for the Indy Car of the future. Let me remind some of you that there was 15 months of intensive design and engineering done by the very skilled motorsports enthusiasts that work for Doctor Panoz at Elan Motorsports, I dream of working in such a facility. The complex rendering of such a successful chassis, melding a beautifully reliable and powerful turbo charged 2.65 litre Cosworth XFE to the flawless and extremely robust carbon fibre chassis of the DP01 is nothing short of stunning. It pains me to say that the ‘braintrust’ currently inhabiting the Indy Pagoda are hardly qualified to give advice on ANY future chassis to be used in the IRL, let alone the X-wing thing.
Whatever chassis is chosen as the successful Indy “Car of Tomorrow”, if I may use a Nascar term, please don’t leave the project up to wild eyed dreamers who really have no idea what and Aerodynamicist is.
Respectfully Jake Summers P Eng / NRC of Canada
It’s a fact that Indycar design needs an evolution. I have followed American Open Wheel Racing for over twenty years now. The “delta wing” proposal should raise a red flag with us fans. An Indycar looks and functions the way it does because of a +100 year design evolution and tradition. A new “delta wing” design coming out of left field is simply too radical for any remaining audience the sport has, or could ever have. It is also impractical. The 2003-current spec has a tragic history of aerial acrobatics already. “Delta wing” racers would horrifically become airplanes at the slightest provocation. I appreciate the out-of-the-box thinking about the concept, but I don’t believe we need to think so hard about this one. If any real designers are listening…let’s stick to more tested, traditional but REFINED forms!
Simple: turbo and NO airbox
2012 Indycar New Holland-Honda
http://casual.netau.net/2012.bmp
Thanks to the super serious people posting here who think that a random idea on this blog will be immediately put into production as the next IndyCar. You cause me to chortle. Yeah, that’s what’s going to happen. We’re going to take a child’s drawing and say THIS IS IT and rush immediately into production! Lighten up a little, if that’s possible. These are just random thoughts and ideas, some wild, many unworkable, but that’s often how breakthroughs come. And if a blog isn’t the best forum for that kind of crazy talk I don’t know what is. Check your history. When people start asking “What if …?” that’s when great leaps forward happen. We’re just having some fun with it. Geez.
My thoughts on the new Delta Wing design by Ben Bowlby:
There are only two ways to make a car faster: increase horsepower or decrease drag. Decreasing the weight helps acceleration, but it’s the drag that limits top end speed. The new design apparently has a smaller engine, so there must be a drastic drag reduction.
On the current car the tires create the most drag. The coefficient of drag (Cd) for an F1 or Indy car is about 1.0, but the typical family car has a better Cd – usually less than 0.4. Is it possible to have open wheels and less drag? At this point, consider that the new car has been described as part motorcycle, part wing: one way to reduce drag is to reduce the number of wheels!
Ok, let’s assume for a moment that we have only two fat wheels. If the driver, fuel, and drivetrain are placed in line between these two wheels, then drag can be greatly reduced and still have open wheels. This will allow greater straight line speed for a given horsepower than the current car. However, the FIA – and everyone else for that matter – would say this is a motorcycle (more like a recumbent bike on steroids). So we have to add two more narrow wheels that add very little drag. This matches the information that the new car is similar to the Spirit of America land speed record car of the 1960s. This car had main wheels in the body and two narrow wheels on stubby wings at the rear.
How would this new car be able to handle corners? In the current car, the outer wheels do most of the work in cornering. It is obvious that narrow out-rigger wheels couldn’t handle that job. However, if the body roll can be controlled, then the fat inline wheels would be able to provide the cornering force. That’s where the wing part comes in. If the wing on the near side provides more downforce than that provided by the outside wing, it will counteract the roll. This idea has two major consequences. First, creating more downforce on the inside wing means more drag on the inside rather than outside. This is actually a benefit because the car will tend to turn easier. The other consequence is that there must be some way to control the wings so that the counter-roll force provided by the wings balances the roll force created by cornering. Ideally the roll angle of the body would be controlled to provide a wheel camber that increases traction (the same as having a negative camber on the outside wheels of the current car).
Let’s compare the major design points of the two designs. The current car has to push four fat wheels through the air. This requires more horsepower and results in poor gas mileage. In cornering, the outer wheels do most of the work. This is accomplished by anti-roll bars, stiff springs, and a very stiff chassis. All of this adds weight and complexity. The downforce is not adjustable while on the track. The downforce required to keep the car on track in a corner must be balanced against the drag penalty on the straightaway.
The new car design reduces drag by having the fat traction wheels in line with the body. The other two wheels are very narrow and sit at the ends of the wings. The reduced drag allows either faster speeds or a smaller powerplant. Either way, less power lost to drag results in better mileage for a given speed. Overall car weight will be reduced by greatly simplifying the suspension. Cornering will be accomplished by the wings providing differential downforce that counteracts the roll of the car.
Additional thoughts/open questions:
Will the wings be under the control of the driver or will there be some automated internal control system? I imagine it must be a control system, otherwise only EJ Viso (the unicycle rider) would be able to balance both the wing and steering inputs around a corner.
Will the car have minimal drag in the straightaways? If so, the difference in drag will cause the cars to slow down in the turns but accelerate on the straights. This will change the nature of oval racing where the speed is currently fairly constant around the entire track.
Are suspension engineers out of a job? The front fat wheel only needs a castor adjustment to optimize steering. The only other adjustment would be ride height.
How do you design a ladder series to prepare a driver to handle this airplane on the ground?
Will there be anything left to adjust? This may be an exciting new concept, but it seems all the myriad details necessary to get car setup right (or frustratingly wrong) have been removed. It may be much more of a spec car than the current one.
Will the fans accept it?
I think the next car just needs to be sexier than some of the drivers. Somethings wrong when your drivers are better looking than the cars.
Nice to see that Brad Dill drinks all the Kool-Aid served up within the I-465 Loop and believes all the rubbish churned out by the IMS PR Dept, funneled through the Indianapolis Star, as “stone tablets from heaven”.
If the assorted jerks in Indycar really cared about the fans, they would be back in Cleveland, Road America, etc.. instead of Alabama.
Like Northern fan says, if there wasn’t a financial gain to be had or a technical advantage involved, sharks like Ganassi or Penske wouldn’t be involved. They’ll still win on Sunday. Then, they will also make tidy profit off the chassis & spares needed to keep the no-talent idiots like Ed Carpenter, Milka Duno and the assorted foreign checkbooks rolling after they start to wreck the new cars.
Lawyers and accountants are now running the Speedway so it’s pretty likely IMS doesn’t have the cash to spend on new chassis development (or the George family will not spend it). Ganassi & Penske will then finally get to wrestle technical contol of the series away from Brian Barnhart and his ex-USAC circus clowns. Think CART…. 1979. The Speedway is financially vulnerable, so in come the sharks for a few bites.
In this economy, no major auto manufacturer is going to put an engine or money into a series with TV ratings as bad as IndyCar. Honda is only there because they turn a profit on the engine supply deal.
The “radical design” of the Bowlby car looks like something churned out by a PR hack to get publicity. Kind of like the first Viceroy Parnelli V-wing turd in 1972 or a Hot Wheels car to get the attention a young naive fan who’ll think it’s “cool”.
Whether it’s a DP01 or a Bowlby, it’s still going to be a one-chassis, one-engine spec car series. BFD! The bigger question HVM should be asking is why we are all wasting our time on this blog. The Indy 500 and Indycar racing is nothing more than another old American “tradition” that has lost all of it’s luster. Kind of like the Miss America Pageant. You still se pretty girls, but who still watches it, and who cares?
As I mentiond earlier (and has been brought up by other posters) the American-made Swift Formula Nippon chassis is the kind of direction we’d like to see Indycar go. Besides the company already being interested, the overall design is clearly an open wheel car but has a sleek, new-generation look to it. It runs the same engine as the current IRL spec but cleary can be made to fit a turbo engine!
With regards to the fun-haters here, pressdog is right, calm the heck down!
here’s a few more examples for your viewing pleasure
I’m ready for a change….have not seen it yet, but bring on the Delta Wing!!!!!
I really think the car should be the Panoz DP01. It is the future of automobile racing in the United States. The fact the IRL “won” has little to do with the future and success of CCWS. It was all about short-term gain for a certain series owner. The DP01 would have worked if they just stuck with it rather than saying “oh, what a sweet deal we’re getting” only to find out the long-term losses really outweighed the short-term gains (what decision in modern society doesn’t fit that description)?
The DP01 was beautiful, fast, affordable…with a few tweaks, and with the ability to run more than one engine, it could be just what the sport needs
this one has my vote. it’s a great design and futuristic looking. i hope when the new car comes, it looks like this.
I like the look of the caparo-t1, its a street legal car. Use its style and look to design the new Indy Car.
http://www.caparo-t1.com/
Whatever it is should be hard to control and drive and make the driver work for it. That will make sure the best drivers around get to contest for the series title.
THis is a great thread. I wonder why no one has put the Lotus 56b (68 Turbine) one of my all time fav race designs. I think that the (I AM Indy) future car is far and away the best looking option along with the Caparo but what scares the heck out of me is the FRONT. Miller and Co keep saying “Motorcycle” and “Stealth” and I will die if there are close together motorcycle like wheels. THat AIN’T a Car!! I like moto gp I just don’t want to TRIKES race at INDY.
Go with the delta wing project!
DP-01.
The irl wont get it right though. And I doubt the teams will do any better.
I think they should scrap the rules. Forget them. Throw them out. The rules should be that there are no rules. I think they should maintain a budget cap and then allow teams to do whatever they want with the money. If the budget cap is 10mm, then teams can design whatever they want. May the fastest car win. That would keep costs down and ingenuity high. (And it would probably make it quite a bit more dangerous and daring as well).
The choice is damn obvious its frustrating.. the Dp-01
The DP-01. It’s developed, tested and exceeds all safety tests mandated by the FIA. There would be no development costs, just start production again. And it already comes in cheaper the that albatross “dull”ara. It might even stand a chance to bring in some of the Champ Car fans who were completely ripped off in the so-called unification (capitulation by KK). But if the folks at Indy have proven anything since the IRL’s inception, it’s that if there is any way they can make a bad decision, they will strive to do so. Instead of looking seriously at a well developed, already raced car that looks about as sleek and clean as any I have seen, they let a bunch of art students come up with some goofy ideas. Then they get a designer to try to put one into reality and they want an engine that produces about 325HP? Really? And you thought ovals were boring now (dont get me wrong, they are….dreadfully). Time for the owners to take control like before, time to put Indy in it’s place as just another oval and time to drop half of the ovals that remain. Get back to real race tracks, get Atlantics as the feeder and get back to real racing. If all that doesn’t work, at least they can say they put in an actual effort. But they wont…they haven’t yet..
Eric, Yes we all own stock in Panoz….OR MAYBE WE ALL JUST WANT GOOD RACING AGAIN AND THE DP-01 WILL GIVE US THAT! WE HEARD YOUR IDEA AND YOU ARE IN THE MINORITY HERE!
The DP01 with a Cossie engine. For a series to be interesting, formula alone won’t work. Take away at least 6 ovals and replace them with road/street tracks including: Vegas, Savannah and maybe Houston. Bar Brian Barnhart, Tony George and Tony Cotman for life. Don’t let the Andrettis have any say in how it develops, just let them drive. Don’t let Kalkhoven, Penske and Ganassi anywhere near a knife. Get rid of Indy lights, replace with Atlantics instead. Send Danica to Nascar full time.
To start off, I know nothing about engineering, That discussion should be left to those who do. My opinion is more based on aesthetics, since that is what we first notice. While I definitely prefer the DP01, it’s cheap, provides good racing and is beautiful, it’s not going to happen. I also liked the Swift car from the Formula Nippon series that someone else posted, its different, but still looks like an open wheel car and is still drastically different looking. But the IRL doesn’t seem to want to go that way. They talk about wanting to do something “new” and “crazy”. Which “new” isn’t necessarily bad, but “crazy” like what the Delta Wing is rumored to be, is probably bad.
Open wheel racing is kind of weird on its own, just with the basic elements of what it is. People don’t get it at first glance, which is the first problem with attracting fans. We don’t realize as fans of the sport how different it is to everyone else in America. Its just not as popular here. Americans these days seem to take to NASCAR, which might be an easier concept to grasp. The cars look like normal cars. I could be way off, but I think that is part of its appeal, the familiarty to what they know. Try explaining IndyCar and Formula 1 to someone who doesn’t know anything about racing. Its difficult to get its true appeal across. I’ve tried, and even though I’m passionate about it, it doesn’t work.
So put something crazy weird like that Delta Wing we’ve all been reading about, is just going to keep the casual fans away and push the faithful hardcore fans (what few are left) away. The whole point of all this new marketing the IRL is trying to do is to attract NEW fans and at the same time grow the fanbase of the “younger” generation, which I’m apart of. But at the same time they need to be careful to not push away the faithful that stuck with it through the split and merger. I grew up watching this stuff in the early 90’s because my dad used the TV on saturday and sunday mornings to record early races on the VCR, I wasn’t always able to watch my saturday morning cartoons, so I watched the race being recorded instead, it grew on me.
I think whoever said we need “evolution” and not “revolution” was dead on. Changing the essentials of what open wheel racing truly is, is not going to help anything. The series need to keep some sort of constant, we don’t always have consistent drivers from year to year because sponsorship is not always readily available, especially in this day and age, most of them aren’t American, while I don’t see that as a huge problem, its just harder for Average Joe American to relate to someone who wasn’t born and raised in the USA. Non-fan’s might not know what a Dallara is, or have any idea that its totally different from a DP01, but they see an open wheel car and know matter what series it is, they know the sport.
The Powers that be, in my opinion need to focus on evolving the current format. Formula 1 is trying to do that in its own way and its created very exciting racing that pretty much turned that series upside down. IndyCar needs to follow suit to an extent. I think we all agree that cost cutting is number one so that a car that is not painted red can win. We all secretly root for the underdog, so they should be given a chance. The new car what ever it ends up being should look SIMILAR to the current formula, but it should be something faster (since that is IndyCar’s number one appeal over NASCAR, it should be utilized) and prettier, make it very appealing to the eye. Since they market Danica constantly, and she is often seen with her car, make it so who ever is looking at Danica has to look at the car that looks as good as she does sitting next to her. Make closer, faster, better racing with the car and let the marketers do their job and the fans will come. Drastic changes should be done to the mechanical features and engineering, not the aesthetics.
Road Map
A new engine spec is essential before future chassis configurations are contemplated, whether they come from Delta, Dallara, Swift, Lola, or anybody else.
No additional engine manufacturer is going to design a stressed engine to fit the current chassis, unless it is readily adaptable to the new chassis design…which hopefully will accomodate a non-stressed installation as well. That encourages variety.
There aren’t any manufacturers interested in building racing engines for the IndyCar series. Honda is bored with it, along with realizing diminishing returns.
Initiating a V6 (or 4 cyl) program, when no other manufacturers are entering competition, is a waste of resources for Honda. They could design an alternate engine to fit the current chassis and an evolutionary chassis, and wonder why they bothered.
IndyCar can announce a new chassis design, and if it is a radical enough departure they will need new engines to accompany it. Honda reluctantly agreed to go to 4 cyl., and have backed off from that position which wasn’t their choice from the get-go. That means IndyCar can’t consider the Delta unless they approve an engine spec that can power it, and find someone with a reason to do so.
They’re going to have to write a spec for a four cylinder, and open it up to any independant builder who wants to make the investment. That means the requirement for a builder to supply most of the grid will have to be ditched as well. Then you have a variety of engines, with the need to police them and possibly implement equivilancy restrictions. Good medicine, some side effects indicated.
Then they can see who wants to build a chassis around it, set a spec, and allow anyone who wants to build a car to meet the requirements to submit a design for crash testing.
Write the 4 cyl turbo spec, and builders can design it to fit the current chassis. With equivalancy, they can run against the Hondas. Then the new chassis can be designed to accept the 4 cyl engines, unstressed.
That works even if the decision for the new chassis is a Delta car. If the new chassis is instead an evolutionary one, call it SW 012, then you can have 4 cyl turbo SW 012’s competing with four cylinder turbo Dallaras and V8 Dallara/ Hondas. The little guys can still run what they got, then phase in an engine program, and then install it in their new chassis when they can afford it.
So 2010 should bring reduced downforce and drag regulations, along with overtake assist that is more effective than they just hinted at (by lowering the base HP, not by modifying the peak output of the existing engine). All of that means minor ECU mapping, new sidepods and undertray, more driver car control required, and punch enough to pass on the straightaway. With enough skill and selective downforce levels, enough variety to pass in the corners, too.
2011, tubo four cylinders permitted. Equivalency established to match Dallara/ Honda 2010 performance levels.
2012, new chassis designs accepted after approval. If it’s evolutionary, old Dallaras can still play too.
If not, the little guys are out.
That’s my map, many people will try to pick it apart and no one above the level of chat room expert will listen.
Andy Bernstein
aka JagtechOhio
In the current economic climate, the FN Swift and DP-01 have distinct advantages (cost and development potential), but that FHONDA engine shouldn’t even be considered for the package until the performance numbers are close to the HRR.
The current thinking of the EARL “braintrust” on a car and engine formula aren’t even close to what the fans want to see (or HEAR for that matter), and the speeds the current car is capable of on a street/road course could easily be eclipsed by a Swift 016 Atlantic car with the Cosworth RS Turbo from the Fiesta rally car.
If you really want to know how the new car should look/perform, just ask your painter (Justin). He has been “one of us” a long time and knows the pulse of the real racing fan.
DP01
I vote for the DP-01. It is fast, safe and affordable.
One major thing in favor of the DP-01 is its underbody-created downforce. This downforce is less affected by the turbulence created by the car in front than wings are, which allows for better passing and closer racing.
As for ovals, wasn’t the DP-01 faster than the Dallara at Homestead?
IIRC it was claimed that on an oval such as IMS that the DP-01 would be too fast. Wouldn’t a reduction in downforce, primarily by reducing the wings, bring the DP-01 to the desired speed range?
*
I want to modify the current chassis to improve oval track racing. I don’t want to wait two years for it to happen.
You take an existing Dallara sidepod and undertray. Narrow the undertray two inches on each outer edge, and round the lower edge of the sidepod accordingly. The consequence is that the surface area of the undertray is now reduced, and air can more easily escape from under the car in off-axis situations. These are both anti-lift improvements.
The major width and height of the sidepod is unchanged: aspects of crash intrusion and deformation are retained.
With the sidepod beveled at its lower edge, it’s harder to use the front wing vortices to increase the downforce generated by the tunnels. Good, that’s what we want.
Modifying the shape of the oil and water coolers may be necessary, perhaps just angling them slightly within the sidepod would suffice. Even replacing them with coolers of a slightly different shapes, i.e. a rounded off outer bottom corners, would not be a huge expense.
Then you have to re-profile the tunnels, since simply narrowing them would increase the velocity and increase the downforce they generate. Big deal. A cool cat with CFD could do that.
Maybe you wouldn’t have to actually reshape the entire tunnel, just a splitter to slow down the air entry speed. That would be the most critical factor though, to decrease the total downforce generated by the tunnel and retain the same center of pressure.
Then you have to CFD the airflow through the inside of the sidepod, to match existing cooling capabilities. We’re not talking about big changes here, to my mind.
Drive your Dallara down the back straight at Kentucky, and guess what? It’s just like the back straight at Motegi, because you dont have enough downforce to go through three flat. You can lift early (Dixon), go in deep and brake (Franchitti), or beg for more wing (Dunno).
The mandates for wing angles and wicker heights are eliminated. Take as much as you need, change it during the race if you want (wicker). Put enough wing on the car to corner flat, and you’ll be a brick in a straight line.
Car control, variation in corner entry speeds, exit speeds, variation in straightline speeds.
Tell me why that is not achievable with a moderate amount of modification, and then tell me how that doesn’t create speed differential and a variety of setup choices.
Something that does not look like the boring Dallara or the forgettable DP01. There is nothing striking about DP01 the casual fan couldn’t tell who was racing on a given weekend when both series were running. No matter what the partisans on the chat boards think they are visually similar cars from a Macro perspective.
First it has to be safe. People will no longer tolerate there heroes dieing.
Second should have enough open development so someone can come up with something that throws Chip and Roger a loop every once in awhile.
The car should have a radically retro 60 era look with down-force produced in the body shape or radically modern with the wings integrated into its shape. If they are making a change make a change otherwise just update the current with a new wing and nose cone.
Finally, less down-force. But everyone better take off there rose color glasses. Prior to IRL years cars on the same side of the track was considered a close race. Less down-force will produce some separation and better drivers will dominate even more.
I’m with Diederik’s choices, quality looking cars that undeniably produce/d quality racing.
The current SLF Panoz DP09 chassis, for ex. (Diederiks 2nd pic) with its 750bhp Mendard engine has demonstrated succesfully & has proven itself on challenging road courses around Europe. Naturally it’d have to be re tweeked & configured for oval racing.
Aesthetically, for me personally anything ‘without a rear wing’ just resembles a Formula Ford car, & that, rightly or wrongly, yells junior level racing.. The image that Penske 15 posted has to be the ugliest piece of kit going (imo).. a 5 year old with a lego set could design something classier! Whatever the final outcome it needs to be safe, reliable, racy on ALL track types, affordable, & come with heaps of new spare parts readily accessible to every team! Oh & I’d like a decent throaty engine that doesn’t sound like bees inside a hairdryer ;p
TripleT, I really cannot believe that you consider that the DP01 and the Dallara chassis look the same. They are nothing like each other except that they have 4 wheels.
Even to those with no axe to grind, the Dallara is an ugly and obviously outdated design. Have you looked at the back end recently?
By all means disagree that with the suggestion that the car should be an evolution and by all mean propose a revolutionary solution. But do it with your eyes and mind open.
its not OPEN WHEEL but this looks cool … :
http://de.academic.ru/pictures/dewiki/67/Caparo_T1_at_British_Motor_Show.jpg
The problem facing IRL and the current formula is two fold. First there has been no “evolution” in the basic design and it’s gone extremely stale. Second, racing at this level should not be about static cookie-cutter designs. Racing, (good racing), is a blend of skilled, talented drivers and constant inovation in design. The glory days of American open wheel racing are focused on the time period when brillent men brought fresh and innovative ideas to the track and beat the pants off everyone else. That’s what kept us gearheads interested. We should keep the current car only as long as it takes to get enough DP01s in service. The rules should be opened up enough to allow evolution of the design as well as encouraging new ideas and constructors. Let the appearance and design be driven by function, that’s racing.
guys what would make this sport way more interesting is if there were at least 6 engine manufacturers and several different race setups for weight, trans ,and shift package different brakes and at least three chassis ,builders with a sort of spec.chassis design that allows for some modifications that way each driver could have a more distinctive race set up from week to week you build a car around your driver and set it up the best you can for him and his driving abilities ,may be a bit like F1 that would really boost the participation of the garages and pit crews,allow for three race set ups for course road oval and allow more driver adjustments and in cockpit tools for more in race customizing. drivers should be more like pilots .allow for more men over the wall at pit stop and allow no more than 4 cars per team and a minimum of 2 .AND NO MORE PART TIME DRIVERS either you race the schedule or you get out for someone who will
It sounds crazy but prepare all surfaces that are not important for downforce with the look of a GOLFBALL. A GolfBAll is designed to minimize the resistance wile traveling true air.I have had a Helmet in the early 8o (Schubert Helmet, Germany) what has had this design. When I was driving on my Motor Bike over 100 miles a hour it was easy to keep your had still and you did not became tired. So do some testing with this surface type and see if it could improve speed. You can start at least with the helmet to see and feel the difference.
This is a helmet from early 80, design is old fashion but that could be updated.
I don’t know what the racing car of the future will look like, but I do know what the driver should look like: Bobby D!
The top should be covered with a fluid-type coating.
At low speed the surface will be flat.
At high speed the fluid will ripple at the surface (like waves on sea) with big ripples or waves at the end of the surface creating more downforce at higher speeds.
Ashie,
Yes to a Casual Fan and from a Macro Perspective the Current Dallara and DP01 do look the same. They are completely interchangeable buzzing by at 200 mph on a 40″ TV unless your serious fan. Big wing in the back big wing in the front. I have asked casual fans and contrary to the Partisan not one new viewer will be gained by a switch to the DP or CC would be running today. Yes, I understand that they look different to one familiar with the intricacy of racing but those people already are watching. If the are going to make a change make a striking change. For those advocating for Panoz, I am sure that they could submit a bid based on Indycars need and if what you advocate is true and DP development can be applied then they should have the upper hand. Dallara has already agreed to build the car in Indiana and is more than capable of producing a modern Formula car. I agree that current model looks a bit like Aardvark and was always partial to Panoz but the better looking car lost out to the faster car which is often the case. The Partisanship has to end and we must be realistic. If they are going to make a change it should be radical enough to clearly distinguish itself from a F1, GP2, WS by Renualt, current Indycar, DP01……..or any of the other Formula cars. It should either hearken back to the late 60’s and early 70’s cars or be extremely futuristic a’la Delta wing. Otherwise no outside of the people willing to post on this board will even notice.
For a new Indy car I would take the F1 1998 car as a startingpoint. good aerodynamics, tyres should be slicks again. A good and firm rollbar and most important a good cockpit which will and can deal on a high impact crash and makes the survival of a driver lots bigger and the changes on a deadly crash a lot less.
As for the fuel, I would stay with what the IRL is using now but meaby get a engine that is more “healthier” for the environment. Just one pitstop in a race and an engine which can last at least 5 races.
that’s my thought on a future IRL car
I think it would be great if you could let the car show the shape it’s in.
Fuel load, tyre condition, malfunctions, you name it. By dynamically changing the ’skin’ color on (big) parts of the car, spectators could follow what’s going on.
For example: the wheel rim could change from white to black, to show tyre wear. Or change to red, when the breaks are giving up. A colored big dot on the side of the air intake could show low fuel levels. The color of the nose could say something about lap time trends. A strobing light behind the drivers head could signal high levels of radio traffic, maybe indicating that something is up.
Now you guys have to come up with the how
Greetings from Holland,
Jeroen
JS, why don’t you just do us all a favor and put yourself out of your misery.
The DP01 is DEAD so get over it. It’s been proven that it isn’t the savior of AOWR.
If the Delta Wing truely looks like this then we should be fine. The one requirement they need is that it can run 3-wide in a pack like at Chicagoland 2009. http://www.racecar-engineering.com/imageBank/7/72614racecarjpg_00000050777.jpg
[IMG]http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq151/santijn/AU524738.jpg[/IMG]
i love this car , a turbo based engine would be great and push to pass. this car will be a new era of racing, much better as F1,
the livery should be orange for bobby D
I really think that the Delt Wing Project will be a colossal failure! What Inddy Racing needs is some tradition. Its tradition that made Indy Racing so popular before the split. If anyone can remember back to the early 1990’s Indy Racing was more popular or than at least just as popular as NASCAR. So with that in mind I really think that the Panoz DP01 should be the car used. If for some reason that does not work Panoz makes the DP09 which is used in the Super League. That car is beautiful. Also the car should have a 900 H.P. engine with a TurboCharger. Do these things and Indy Racing will once again be the racing series that was so popular prior to the split! I do not know why this is so hard for the brain trust at Indycar to figure out. If we continue down the path we are going Indycar will be DEAD! So to recap PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE NO DELTA WING CAR. Do you want to alienate the few remaing Indycar loyalists? Show the fans that you do car about us! Because WE care about Indycar! I have been watching Indycar ever since I can remember and never do I remember anything remotelylike what is going on. Thank you for letting me speak my piece. I hope for the best.
I really think that the Delt Wing Project will be a colossal failure! What Indy Racing needs is some tradition. Its tradition that made Indy Racing so popular before the split. If anyone can remember back to the early 1990’s Indy Racing was more popular or at least just as popular as NASCAR. So with that in mind I really think that the Panoz DP01 should be the car used. If for some reason that does not work Panoz makes the DP09 which is used in the Super League. That car is beautiful. Also the car should have a 900 H.P. engine with a TurboCharger I think a Menard engine or a Cosworth would be great. Do these things and Indy Racing will once again be the racing series that was so popular prior to the split! I do not know why this is so hard for the brain trust at Indycar to figure out. If we continue down the path we are going Indycar will be DEAD! So to recap PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE NO DELTA WING CAR. Do you want to alienate the few remaing Indycar loyalists? Show the fans that you do care about us! Because WE care about Indycar! I have been watching Indycar ever since I can remember (35 years at least) and never do I remember anything remotely like what is going on. As much as I hate to say this, the IRL forgot about the most important thing in the series…THE FANS! Thank you for letting me speak my piece. I hope for the best. I hope The Indy Racing League gets the message and returns to its former glory days. If not I guess I will have to continue getting up at 7:00am on Sunday mornings to watch F1! One last thing I do not care what country the driver is from I just want the best drivers driving the cars. I do however think that Ryan Hunter Reay and J.R. Hildebrand should be in the series fulltime.
NO DELTA WING PERIOD! NOT NOW NOT EVER! BRING BACK THE PANOZ DP01 OR THE DP09 GREAT LOOKING CAR THAT CAN BE BUILT RELATIVELY CHEAP COMPARED TO THE DALLARA! Also we need somewhere around 800 hp and a turbocharger! It would not hurt the IRL if speed records were challenged. The problem with the IRL though is they could not care less about the fans.
What do I think NOW? Today?
Eight reasons why a road car mechanic thinks an engineer can’t design a racing chassis without an engine spec:
1) Indeterminate center of gravity to calculate suspension loads.
2) Design elements aft of the monocoque rear bulkhead cannot be resolved. Stressed or non-stressed engine architecture? Required width of engine bay? Inline four or “boxer” engine? V6? V8? Turbo or N/A?
3) Even with a wheelbase spec provided, no known installed length of engine prevents determination of gearbox configuration.
4) Requirement, dimension and placement of all intercoolers cannot be determined.
5) Configuration of bodywork cannot be designed. Air box or not? Sidepods required to house intercoolers? Engine cover/rear deck design undetermined, so rear wing configuration cannot be projected.
6) Gross weight, weight distribution and power to weight ratio cannot be accurately defined. Capacity and weight of required fuel load unknown.
7) Downforce generation cannot be quantified without first resolving the bodywork designed to house the required components.
So it doesn’t get fully designed on the computer screen, or prototyped, or tested, or presented for approval before it has an engine configuration. Even the Falcon had a better head start than that.
The Delta will be an incomplete “concept model”, unless Bowlby has already gone ahead and defined his own criteria for the drivetrain as well. No one else will bother drawing much more than a tentative picture at present.
Function cannot follow form, this is a race car we’re talking about. The rest is cartoons and concepts, is it not?
Andy Bernstein
Crikey, I just now saw the Dallara drafts.
Make mine a #3, with a Subaru WRX-Ti flat four turbo, if you please. The front wheel fairings are awesome for contact prevention and wheel turbulence reduction (added “ad” space, too). That car is a slippery creature, yes?
Too bad Mr. Toso can’t get any farther down the road with one yet.
Andy
I think the new car should retain the look of a traditional indycar, but encourage innovation in powerplants. How cool would it be to have gas vs. electric cars? The rules should be structured so that the different powerplants are roughly equal in performance. How much interest form the media and the general public would that draw? Keep things relevant to the future of the cars we drive on the street!
have you guys seen this from Dallara, and what do you think? i think it looks better than the current car
http://www.hvmracing.com/hvmblog/wp-content/upload/greg moore- emerging from the dark.bmp
Just a little mo(o)re modern then this… NO SPEC FORMULA!
It seems Dallara is on the right track! Now all they have to do is open a factory in Indiana or in the Untied States. Then we need to add that 800-900 h.p. engine with a turbo charger. I have been saying all along the DP-01 was the way to go. But these cars are certainly bringing INDY back to basics! Lets hope it continues for the fans sake and for the future of INDY CAR racing. Nice job Dallara!
Je moet zorgen dat je een goede auto hebt, Het maakt niet uit wat voor kleur je hebt alls de auto maar snel genoeg is.
Robert Doornbos is snel genoeg. Praat veel met de mensen die bij het team hooren dat wil zeggen goed luisteren en doet daar wat mee daan komt het wel goed.
P.S.
Een goed jaar voor het team HVM racing en Robert Doornbos ( Bobby D ).
Gr Ton Basters.
Since this site is mostly read by Americans I’ve translated the text form Ton Basters:
You need to take care of getting a good car. It doesn’t matter what kind of colour it is, as long as the car is fast enough. Robert Doornbos is fast enough! Talk a lot to the people who are a part of the team, or like this: Listen good to the people in and from the team and do something with the suggestions they give. Than everything will go good!
PS.
A good year for the team HVM racing and for Robert Doornbos (Bobby D)
Greetings Ton Basters
Translated by Desiree Bogaart.
In a sport that is salivating for new fans, I don’t think that keeping elements of an older body style for the sake of continuity benefits anybody. If the delta wing is going to improve the performance of the vehicle, do it.
A couple mentioned that it is hard (impossible) to effectively design a car without an engine spec. So true. Crank down displacement and reintroduce turbos. That lesson in efficiency would translate well to the consumer markets. Everything awesome in your street car has roots in a race car.
NO DELTA WING CLOWN CAR. What are the delta wing guys smoking. How is that thing going to get around long beach? With that narrow front track width how is it going to turn? Just get a 1994 cart rule book (I’ll donate mine if you can’t find one) Invite any and all mfgrs. 2.65L turbo engine, 900 hp It was the best open wheel racing ever and can be again. NO SPEC CAR OR ENGINE. NO ONE CARES ABOUT SPEC RACING. You say it will cost to much..it does not matter how cheap you make it if you have no fans to pay the bills.
Honestly, anything but the Delta Wang. I would love to see something radical, but not looking like… well, like THAT…
I for one would love to see different engines, alternative fuels, really. Love to see a TDI against some hybrid thing against hydrogen…
But it’s gotta have four wheels where they should be. The Swift 23 is pretty cool…
The DeltaWing will make Bobby D. a true Flying Dutchman
What clearly works as a “hot” series in the US is if there is close racing provided, where it is not clear throughout the race who would win it. No series dominance, close wheel-to-wheel battles, slip streaming etc. As such the Nascar series is the most successful, even though their cars are ugly as hell. They manage to put on a good show and even old fat guys can win. That used to be the case in Indy as well, think of AJ Foyt, Al Unser Sr. (old and fat) and Jr. (young and fat at that time).
If the Indy series wants to be popular again, it needs to provide for the same excitement in close racing, strong but affordable chassis, standardized bodywork with tight rules, and maybe even the same engines as used in Nascar, drawing in the same OEM car companies, which makes it much healthier already.
If then the body is much more attractive than Nascar, the cars are lighter weight, and with the same engines go much faster, and the design of the body allows for close wheel-to-wheel racing, with a large number of cars entering, and everyone with a chance to win. The same car/chassis can then also be used with smaller engine sizes in “feeder series” for the top level, so that people across the nation can drive similar cars in more local events.
I am open minded about the open wheel part, in part because I think close racing is really needed, and open wheel makes that too risky. I love seeing cars getting close to each other, but if they do bang wheels, it should not immediately be over and out. As such I think that at least the space between front and rear wheels should be filled up, and the cars should feature front and rear end designs that allow for “bumper-to-bumper” racing, so no more fragile little wing constructions.
I am attaching a few images of a direction I am thinking about. The bodywork here is covering the wheels, but it would be easily adaptable to open top wheel areas.
Cor, I agree with most of your points but with out open wheels you just have Sports Car racing. The point of open wheel racing is that there are open wheels. The lack of completely open wheels is one of my main problems with the Delta Wing, and from what I’ve read others share my concern. I enjoy Sports Car racing, and there is a place for it. In a series like ALMS, not Indycar. That is not what Indycar was founded on. If you take away the open wheels, you have officially killed the highest tier of American open wheel racing.
What about this?
or the old Pininfarina concept..?
I think the current racing cars are well-designed with each part having its own importance. I am not an expert on this subject, so I cannot really say how to re-design it without knowing the consequences. But I think the future racing car design should consider: strength, less resistance to the air flow, ability to maintain down force, safety, weight of the car, and good balance or stability. Hope someone will come up with a cool design with improved car performance.
In my opinion you stole this article and placed on another site. I had already seen.
It should look like a DP01, plain and simple.
Maybe the A1GP cars, there are a lot for sale now.
Robert nows a lot about them.
I did a design based on the premise that the IRL wants close racing, preferably like the bumper to bumper racing in NASCAR. This design incorporates a double decker front area, where the lower section is a match to the lower rear section on the opponents car. This will allow for very close racing without upsetting basic aerodynamics.
Of course the car can be executed in the same expensive carbon fiber as the current cars, a cheap version of Formula 1, but if the IRL is serious about cost cutting, it could be interesting to try and built this car using a tubular chassis similar to what again NASCAR is using, but then of course narrower, single seater and with a mid engine layout.
Ideally the IRL would then use engines from the same OEM corporations now in NASCAR, with very close monitoring engine output etc., so that it will become a multiple make series, with identical chassis, very limited tolerances in body design, and true competition.
Indy Racing is not and never was Formula 1. It should not try to be like F1, but offer the passion and character of racing its US audience desires.
IRL are superb in requesting new designs for an Indycar. ( Well done and I guarantee there will be more race fans because of this. )
After watching F1 for 45 years ( Crap overtaking ) and being a lover of IRL and NASCAR – The design I believe would best be suited to the IRL requirements is the BAT design – Only because their design is as close to the following requirements whereas other designs are not as extensive ( rear section ) – I believe the following are ranked in the most import things to provide a package which would provide the best racing –
- Mandatory rear section behind rear wheels to provide the very best air flow to the following car.
- Mandatory Height specified front wing to work with rear section of car in front.
- More dependency on Rear Wing ( Maybe higher ) designed to provide down force as opposed to under car aerodynamics. ( under car aero screws up following car ) ( More mechanical grip needed therefore drivers can more happily oversteer on non oval circuits )
- Slightly higher seating position will definitely help but shouldn’t make a vast change to the racing. ( My belief )
- Also Mandatory single make with Shark Fin ( extra area for sponsors ) ( all cars provide same air flow to following cars therefore nobody disadvantaged )
- Only engine / front wing / rear wing / wheels / tyres / suspension setup can be changed but basic car stays same so allowing following car the best aerodynamics.
Good Luck
Rick
I agree with Rick about the main characteristics, which is what I integrated in the design as well. I am attaching a few more images of it, hopefully proving the point.
In the chrome example I am suggesting trying to get Apple as a sponsor, clearly moving the audience away from WalMart to the Target and higher category. NASCAR is WalMart and Indy is much more sophisticated than that.
I’ve really enjoyed reading everyone’s opinions on the future Indy Car. My thought is to just take the Panoz Champ Car chassis and give it a little makeover. So that’s what I did.
I kept the tub basically the same but lengthened the nose to accommodate the tapered front wing, sloped the side pods down from the cockpit (similar to the Honda Indy concept), made the engine area smaller to accommodate a 4 cyl. turbo, and incorporate the rear wing into the bodywork and side pods.
It would be great to see several chassis and engine manufacturers competing again in the Indy Car Series.
-Tim